[dar-list] Some space for Frog X pleace...

[Wood Alexander]

I don't have any deep knowledge of the incredibly
complex science involved in the global warming issue.
But I think there's useful insight to be had in just
taking a step back and looking at our society. Most
Americans go virtually nowhere without a car, a
machine that generally weights 1.5 to 2 tons. That's
insane and obviously unsustainable in the long term.

It's also really hard to change given the way our
society has been built over the last century, with
homes, workplaces, and stores sprawling across the
landscape. To try to live an ecologically correct
life, in a real sense involves opting out of life. And
you only get one.

But if we're at least aware of how crazy our society
is, we can do something. We can make living closer to
work a priority, and we can try to avoid automatically
getting in a car every time we have to go somewhere.
For the last seven years, I have lived within walking
distance of a grocery store, and I have yet to make
the small purchase that would enable me to do
large-scale grocery shopping under my own power -- one
of those shopping carts we all associate with old
ladies (perhaps because they grew up in a less spoiled
era).

As the introduction to the old vegetarian cookbook
"Diet for a Small Planet" points out, we can save
enormous amounts of agricultural resources by eating
less meat. And we can save enormous amounts of energy
by using fans or open windows rather than air
conditioners when possible in the summer.

Maybe all this is just re-arranging deck chairs on the
Titanic, as the power plants here and across the globe
continue to spew out more carbon dioxide all the time
and more of the world is seduced by the Big Mac. But
if we at least keep alive the idea that people don't
have to be utterly dependent on machines, maybe
society can adapt a little more easily when the
inevitable change to a less extravagant lifestyle
takes place.

Alex

P.S. And kudos to Sander's country where the bicycle
is still a staple means of transportation! Let's make
the U.S. another!

--- Sander Meier <sander.meier at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
> 
> As you fellow listers like Dar and will probably be
> concerned about the
> environment like her, I thought to post some of my
> thoughts and maybe start a
> discussion with this...I have mixed feelings about
> the current environmental
> hype taking place. I'm glad that it's subject of
> discussion, but it does annoy
> me a lot of the time.
> 
> I have some serious doubts about what the majority
> believes is causing global
> warming. It's a hype to blame the CO2 we blow into
> the air, but isn't mother
> earth much more complex than that? Yes, there is the
> greenhouse gas effect and
> I tend to believe the world is getting warmer, but
> is CO2 causing it? Isn't
> vaporized water a much bigger contributor to the
> greenhouse effect? If it gets
> warmer more water from the oceans gets vaporized,
> which will also leads to
> more CO2 in the air. But isn't there a reason for
> temperature rising? If I use
> my common sense and think about the warming we need
> from the greenhouse effect
> and look at the way we use nature's products, I
> always feel that the real
> issue is the space we use and the frequency we use
> that space. More and more
> space is used to grow things and more and more
> forests are disappearing. Also
> the animals we eat need space. Unfortunately, we put
> them into small cages,
> but they still need to eat. If they can't get it out
> from their small
> territory, we have to bring it to them, which costs
> space to grow somewhere
> else. With this you can also see the stupidity of us
> humans; if it's a little
> bit cheaper we mass produce no matter what. It's
> what we do with food, getting
> it from places where production is cheaper and costs
> seem to be the only thing
> that guides us. How many people are interested in
> how it's produced and where
> it comes from?Are we eating more? Well, maybe not,
> but the world's population
> is rising, so we need more food and we do waste a
> lot more. Not even talking
> about all the products that get produced (which
> includes packaging), but don't
> need.
> 
> Trees take up water from the air and with less
> trees, less vaporized water
> will get taken from the air (also CO2, so yes
> there's a link, but that doesn't
> prove that CO2 causes global warming). This
> increases the greenhouse gas
> effect, I believe, but doesn't it only extend warm
> periods? I mean, does it
> make winters less hard and summers start early? With
> all the space we use to
> grow things, the frequency we use that space and the
> increasing earths
> population, I believe we need more warmth to grow it
> all, so we and animals
> can eat. More and more water will be needed at land,
> so we need warmth to
> vaporize the water. Maybe the poles need to melt
> some in order to keep the
> balance. Is maximum reached when everything is
> melted? The sea level will rise
> with the portions of the ice above the current sea
> level, which might be a
> problem depending on the amount actually melted. It
> is a problem because we
> humans keep living at places that are beyond sea
> level. We protect ourselves
> from the sea. The richest countries will be able to
> keep doing that, but who
> stays rich after 100 years from now? My country, the
> Netherlands, is beyond
> sea level for a big part. You can say that almost
> our whole economy is beyond
> it. There are expensive projects that now protect us
> after a disastrous
> flooding in 1953, but they will cost more money in
> the future. Maybe it is a
> natural process. Less trees, less land, because the
> ocean takes it back.
> 
> It annoys me that with this hype, people seem to
> have all the answers. I don't
> have the answers and I don't know if CO2 is
> contributing to global warming or
> not. I don't believe scientists have a total
> understanding of all the cycles
> in nature. We do pollute our air and with that the
> oceans, so we should make
> drastic changes. With the rising economies in huge
> populations as China and
> India have, I don't see this so positive. I wish I
> could be optimistic, but
> doesn't that make us wait for something never
> happening?
> 
> I just hope we will not stare at one thing, but try
> to see the bigger picture.
> And if we don't understand, we shouldn't go there.
> I'm really not pleading for
> continuing blowing more and more CO2 in the air. You
> do not want to think what
> will happen to China and India if they keep on
> building coal energy plants and
> fire up ovens to bake stones for their immense
> population that suddenly wants
> to live in houses of stone. If they would use wood
> it's a problem too, but
> saying they can't is hypocrite. We don't have more
> rights than the ones we
> kept poor (with a western eye) all those times. I
> don't want to think about
> the political consequences of American, and more and
> more European, companies
> having sold themselves to investors of the rising
> economies, when nature is
> really showing its teeth.
> 
> Oh yeah one last thing; As I believe that the use of
> space may cause global
> warming, I totally don't believe in biofuels. To
> keep that up and increase the
> use of it, we need more space, so that will increase
> the deforestation OR much
> more people will starve to death for not having
> something to eat.
> 
> Anyone else some thoughts to share...?
> Sander
> 
> 
> "I am going to a far, far land. I know it sure as
> I've a past and a future.
> With my maps on the table, you see, I have lost many
> things, so many I won't
> turn back" "And I've been running uphill, panting,
> punching in the air,
> Fighting what's been pushing me down, as if it's
> really there." Dar Williams
>
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